DescentBB

Hi there, I'm Dunkelza, the Lead Moderator over at the Descendent Studios forums.

http://descendentstudios.com

It seems like a lot of the good questions have been answered, but I wanted to see if there were any others that I could help with as we wrap up the Kickstarter campaign.

I'll do my best to answer what I can and to get answers to what I don't know.

Thanks!

Hi Dunkelza. I'll let Krom give you the classic DBB welcome, but in the mean-time good to see you here!

Hey, welcome to the DBB dunkelza!
I hope that some of the questions that many Descenters have around here gets answered with you around.

Hope you enjoy your stay here!

BTW, you might also want to check out the forums at Planet Descent: http://www.planetdescent.net/
As there's too low interest and skepticism regarding D:Underground on there (even if I tried to do my best to clear things up).

I've been sitting back, seeing how this goes, and i'm reading the posts on the DU board.

But I only have one question. What will you guys do if the Kickstarter fails to reach its' goal?

Ferno wrote:...But I only have one question. What will you guys do if the Kickstarter fails to reach its' goal?

Yeah, I do have the same question. It would be such a shame if the work that is already done (like the maps and the gorgeous new powerups) goes to waste.

Having been behind the last major attempt at a Descent game sanctioned by Interplay, I think I'll wait to be interested until there's a demo, at the minimum. There are a thousand ways this could go off wrong, and we've seen many of them.

Don't think I'm bitter over D4 either, far from it in fact. The game we'd designed and built would not work in today's expectations. I did an on-paper redesign of D4 to modernize it, for fun, but even then it feels very hard to convey what made Descent great in a modern design contex. Ultimately, it's why I chose not to pursue a personal project of porting D1 to UT4. I loved Descent, and now I'm content to let it rest quietly in my memories.

TL;DR: I think even if you haven't bitten off more than you can chew, you're not going to come off with a great result. Descent is over, and has been for a long time.

Hi, dunkelza. I'm glad to see you here.
Not necessarily collect all 600K donations. Just make a game on the money that is already there, as it should look like in your opinion.
Furthermore.
Sol Contingency gave for Interplay Entertainment / Descendent Studios complete package of the game's development? I think it would be fair if Descendent Studios will also provide a complete documentation package of the development of Descent : Underground for SOLC for further modding or new port.

Hey Halcyon, haven't seen you around here in a while...
...and that's your opinion. You don't have to buy the game or back it if you don't think you'll enjoy it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be made for those who think they will . Personally I'm curious to see where it will go but I likely won't be buying until there's a full singleplayer game.

Good to see you here dunkelza, I hope you still stick around once the kickstarter is done. The DBB badly needs fresh blood (and I think there might be some here who need reminding that fresh blood is a good thing).

Valin Halcyon wrote:it feels very hard to convey what made Descent great

http://descendentstudios.com/community/ ... #entry7966

Wow Lothar, that's one giant wall of text You found. It's also a good analysis of that which makes Descent great. At Orbital we'd done a number of studies and tests of the games to try to quantify this in greater detail.

I'll echo the first reply to that post, if they follow that recipie, they will be indeed close if not spot on to what Descent needs to be.

Valin Halcyon wrote:Wow Lothar, that's one giant wall of text You found.

Found LOL

My wife wrote it.

Ferno wrote:I've been sitting back, seeing how this goes, and i'm reading the posts on the DU board.

But I only have one question. What will you guys do if the Kickstarter fails to reach its' goal?

I believe Wingman's response was something along the lines of "dusting off my resume".

My understanding is that this is the one and only shot. If the KS does not succeed there will be no modern Descent game for the foreseeable future.

Personally, I suspect that the intellectual property (IP) will become even harder for future projects to access if that happens. Companies tend to get even more aggressive about protecting their IP after flashes of interest that don't turn into paying products.

sigma wrote:Hi, dunkelza. I'm glad to see you here.

Thank you!

sigma wrote:Not necessarily collect all 600K donations. Just make a game on the money that is already there, as it should look like in your opinion.

If the Kickstarter does not reach $600,000 there will be $0, no money. Kickstarter does not gather the money unless we achieve the total amount before the last date.

If the Kickstarter does not reach $600,000 there will be no Descent game because the developers will have to work for other companies and will not be allowed to work on this game by those companies.

sigma wrote:Sol Contingency gave for Interplay Entertainment / Descendent Studios complete package of the game's development? I think it would be fair if Descendent Studios will also provide a complete documentation package of the development of Descent : Underground for SOLC for further modding or new port.

Descent: Underground will have tools for modding and making maps. The community that buys the game will tell the game developers what is needed for good tools. These developers are famous for listening to the community that buys the game.

Alter-Fox wrote:Hey Halcyon, haven't seen you around here in a while...
...and that's your opinion. You don't have to buy the game or back it if you don't think you'll enjoy it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be made for those who think they will . Personally I'm curious to see where it will go but I likely won't be buying until there's a full singleplayer game.

Backing now is the best way to get the full single-player game. Really, having a successful Kickstarter now is the only way it's going to happen.

Because of games like Skyrim and Bioshock, the cost of doing a "AAA quality" single-player campaign is a lot higher than it used to be. As awesome as Descent's SP was, if a company put out that kind of campaign today (even with super hot graphics), players would likely pan it as being too narrow in scope and not having enough variety.

As a result, the leads realized that putting out a modern SP campaign that would really excite a lot of modern gamers and get them hooked on Descent was going to cost (IIRC) somewhere between one and several million dollars. They knew that trying to Kickstarter that (these guys don't have a lot of cash) was much more risky than asking for the smaller sum of $600,000- which was enough to make a good multiplayer game.

I can tell you that single-player was being discussed well before the Kickstarter, it wasn't an afterthought. I think the reason it wasn't announced early on was that they didn't want to discourage people with the high cost. They knew that if they could make the multiplayer, they could sell enough to afford the SP campaign, but I think they were worried that talking about it too soon would create FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). They don't like FUD. They like to be clear about what they can do and then go do it awesomely.

Valin Halcyon wrote:Having been behind the last major attempt at a Descent game sanctioned by Interplay, I think I'll wait to be interested until there's a demo, at the minimum.

Have you seen the new multiplayer gameplay demo video up on the Kickstarter page?

Here's a direct YouTube link:


Obviously, this is still super "Work In Progress", but you can see things like the full 6DoF in it.

It's kinda buggy and really hard on the GPUs (notice the stutter) because it's so WIP, but it shows how the flight mechanics are being tweaked to be more like D1/2 based on user feedback. It also shows a newer iteration of the basic guns.

dunkelza wrote:Have you seen the new multiplayer gameplay demo video up on the Kickstarter page?

Cool, but I think SOL has a better feel. Strangely, the more I look into D:U the more I like the direction SOL went with the game. Everything from the ship designs to weapons to the balance of space (giant spaces were a real downer in D3) seems more sensible to me.

Granted, I am fairly pedestrian with my taste in games. The original Descent was simplistic by todays standards. I didn't feel like I had to break out an abacus and plan how I wanted to complete a level. I just had to go in there, shoot a bunch of stuff, and I was rewarded with a big explosion at the end. The back-story was pretty cool too. You were a skilled mercenary taking a job to clean up the mess of an organization with some obviously illegal ★■◆● going on. A Material Defender is a lot like Han Solo or someone sexy. D:U? I don't get it. Are you just piloting mining drones? Sounds like I'm going to work at a shitty job. Not sure I want to play that, my real job is shitty enough.

No offense, but the piloting in that video was horrible. This is Descent we are talking about here; if you aren't using slides/strafes pretty much at all times when you are moving or turning, you are very much doing it wrong.

These guys desperately need some direct experience flying with and watching people who actually know how to fly and fight in 6dof (with a good set of controls) or they are going to have issues with the development.

vision, I would say the reason SolC gameplay videos look better is because the people recording them are simply better at actually flying. The people in the D:U video quite obviously don't know the first thing about movement or orientation in 6dof space. If it looks unnatural, it is probably because of the pilots and not the game. I'll even say they are so bad at flying that it is impossible to tell if they got the game mechanics right or not.

Edit: oh, by popular demand:

vision wrote:

dunkelza wrote:Have you seen the new multiplayer gameplay demo video up on the Kickstarter page?

Cool, but I think SOL has a better feel.

Keep in mind that SolC is much farther along in the process. The demo posted today was literally their first try at multiplayer -- they just got it working last night -- and the longer video explains that the scale is still very rough, more like a general estimate than an actual plan. And they've been very explicit about wanting D1 flight mechanics, not D3 flight mechanics.

The fact that we're talking about the "feel" as being like D3 is a very good sign. Their first estimate at least put them in the general vicinity of an actual Descent game -- which already puts it above 90% of the rest of 6dofs. And they'll have some fanatical D1 pilots working with the team to refine it, just like SolC has, so we might end up with two very good Descenty-feeling games.

Krom wrote:the reason SolC gameplay videos look better is because the people recording them are simply better at actually flying. The people in the D:U video quite obviously don't know the first thing about movement or orientation in 6dof space

You can see hints that they understand how to change orientation. But they also look like they set up their keyboard-only controls like 15 minutes ago and are still at the "where are my slides?" level of practice. I think they're spending a lot more time trying to make the game function than they are working on their trichording (but WingMan used to be a Kali pilot; he'll get it back eventually.)

Don't forget Krom, this has only been in development a few weeks. SolC has been in development for years. It's amazing there is any test videos at all, let alone functioning multiplayer.

Krom wrote:No offense, but the piloting in that video was horrible. This is Descent we are talking about here; if you aren't using slides/strafes pretty much at all times when you are moving or turning, you are very much doing it wrong.

These guys desperately need some direct experience flying with and watching people who actually know how to fly and fight in 6dof (with a good set of controls) or they are going to have issues with the development.

Word. This is my chief point of concern for the DU team these days. They love D1, they want to make D1, they know how to make a game, that's all goodness. But whenever they talk about 6dof tactics, I have to shake my head at the sheer cluelessness. These guys are noobs, shouldn't the next game be designed by someone who understands the current one?

But they know. And they are doing a lot of things to try to mitigate that risk.

They're playing the original game some. They aren't good at it -- they are decent by single player standards, horrible by heyday anarchy standards -- but they are trying to understand it, trying to get a feel for it. No, it isn't ground you can cover in the time they have, but they're at least trying, at least they understand that it's important for them personally to be the best pilots they can be. There will be some benefits from that.

They're listening to their community and agree with us about what's important. Targeting D1, making sure the ship flies right as a critical, first thing to worry about, making balanced weapons, making it a cerebral, intelligence-stressing game. They're on board with all of that. They aren't just saying it, it's what they want to do. That's very good. I'm concerned they're going to get the physics close enough from their point of view, but not close enough from ours . . . but we'll see. I suspect if we get truly upset about it, they'll listen.

But here's the real mitigation: their QA phase for ships and weapons happens pretty early in development, this coming August for a game that wants to release next March. Nine months of testing. They have a history of listening to the community, and the testers they've assembled? Consist of people willing to pay $500 on the kick starter for the privilege of seeing ships and weapons early and giving feedback. It's going to be 50 or 60 pilots hardcore enough to want to do that, and if the bulk of 'em aren't Real Pilots, I will be utterly shocked. And in fact, Lotharbot and I are already in that group, and so's Thorne and ccb and I don't know who else . . . but I do know that pledge tier is an awfully attractive one for a hardcore pilot. Plus, I think Lotharbot and I are going to have a few extra Proving Grounds accesses we can hand out, and we won't be recruiting clueless people.

And that's really what gives me hope for this thing: Descendent Studios may not consist of real pilots, but they have engineered their design process to heavily include them. They have SIGNED. UP. to have several dozen real pilots yell at them about their ships and weapons for nine months.

After Lotharbot and I spend a week grilling them in person.

Even Sol Contingency didn't sign up for that.

It's gonna be pain and misery, but if you step back and blur your eyes -- this is a really, really good process. I have every expectation that it will produce a good game.

. . . but you nailed it when you said it hurts the presentation that they keep posting videos of themselves flying like n00bs. I feel the same way. They seriously need to get a real pilot to fly their demo reels. If nothing else, it would send the message that someone who knows how to fly is sold on the promise of this game.

Yeah, I haven't flown in years and it was still almost painful to watch how people were flying in that video.

One thing to keep in mind though, it isn't like the people at Parallax were expert pilots when D1 was being put together. Being good pilots is not a prerequisite for making a quality game but since they are attempting to remake Descent, at least getting to the point where they have mastered holding orientation, banking, and sliding would definitely help.

Probably the thing that they really need some expert help with would be the controls. Newbies just aren't going to be able to tell easily if the controls are "right" or not. They are going to need people who have experience and fly on a joystick with no deadzone, or a mouse with no acceleration, or a keyboard with no ramping. People like that who can push the ships to the limits will be able to tell if the input handling isn't up to par and will be a huge asset in getting it tuned properly. The demands Descent puts on a control scheme are way higher than pretty much any other shooter game, so the input handling has to be perfect or it literally won't fly.

Edit: It is also worth noting that any video shot from the screen of an expert pilot fighting other expert pilots is going to have most people puking in a bucket after 10 minutes from the motion sickness. Which may, or may not be pretty effective marketing.

Re: Expert v expert piloting . . . I did send them this. They did puke, but only because the graphics were so bad by modern standards.

Drakona wrote:Re: Expert v expert piloting . . . I did send them this. They did puke, but only because the graphics were so bad by modern standards.

LOL!

That was a good joke, I have to say.

I'm sure some of you noticed, but the guys admitted right there in the video that they are... um... rediscovering... how to fly in Descent.

As Drakona said, the key difference with this team is that they've demonstrated not just a willingness to listen to fans, but a definite desire. Both Wingman and Rob have become famous in the industry for daring to involve fans in the design process, something that few designers want to do and fewer still have been able to execute at anywhere near their level of competence.

One of the major things that attracted me to support these guys is that they clearly don't take themselves too seriously. They are hardcore serious about making a good game, but they don't think they're the only people in the room with good ideas. I was genuinely floored the first time I got asked for real input on a decision- I was just some random fan in a bar and Wingman was asking my opinion. Ask around on our forums, I'm by no means the only person who's had that experience. It's amazingly refreshing- and not something you see a lot of developers doing.

I think Krom is right in pointing out that piloting skill was not a prerequisite for Descent development. But it hurt me to watch that too. I do tend to think it would benefit Descendent Studios a lot if they could watch a few top-tier pilots, in person, navigating Descent and their game. Also I feel it would solidify my career as a mercenary-for-hire if they would enlist my services as a pilot in their next video.

I was really excited to hear that Wingman and crew were engaging in some Descent games recently. Right on, guys!

Sergeant Thorne wrote: I do tend to think it would benefit Descendent Studios a lot if they could watch a few top-tier pilots, in person, navigating Descent and their game.

As it so happens, we've extended invitations to the team to join us for the 20th Anniversary LAN in Denver this July -- and they seemed interested. And that place is gonna be PACKED with top-tier pilots.

But yes. Listening to pilots is even more important that being pilots. It's best if you can have both, but they have nailed the important one.

dunkelza wrote:As Drakona said, the key difference with this team is that they've demonstrated not just a willingness to listen to fans, but a definite desire. Both Wingman and Rob have become famous in the industry for daring to involve fans in the design process, something that few designers want to do and fewer still have been able to execute at anywhere near their level of competence.

One of the major things that attracted me to support these guys is that they clearly don't take themselves too seriously. They are hardcore serious about making a good game, but they don't think they're the only people in the room with good ideas. I was genuinely floored the first time I got asked for real input on a decision- I was just some random fan in a bar and Wingman was asking my opinion. Ask around on our forums, I'm by no means the only person who's had that experience. It's amazingly refreshing- and not something you see a lot of developers doing.

That really is awesome. From the get-go I was continually impressed by the Descendent Studios team, which is a big part of what made me keep looking at Descent: Underground until I was ready to back it.

Krom wrote:Edit: It is also worth noting that any video shot from the screen of an expert pilot fighting other expert pilots is going to have most people puking in a bucket after 10 minutes from the motion sickness. Which may, or may not be pretty effective marketing.

"You can't BUY publicity like this!!"
[youtube]Oy-N0MZ1Zbg[/youtube]

Drakona wrote:As it so happens, we've extended invitations to the team to join us for the 20th Anniversary LAN in Denver this July -- and they seemed interested. And that place is gonna be PACKED with top-tier pilots.

That would be awesome - as someone who spent half of the time watching with the last few LANs we had, it's definitely fun to watch, and possibly educational about what it looks like, too.

Also: your location on this BB is... a little out of date.

Sirius wrote:Also: your location on this BB is... a little out of date.

So's mine. But, you know, busy writing about the potential future of Descent.

-----

The thing that keeps me coming back to D:U and upping my pledge is, as negatratoron said, "I keep asking questions, and I keep getting very reasonable answers". Sometimes much better answers than I expected, even better than I would have come up with, to difficult questions.

When we first mentioned being active, competitive Descent pilots with strong opinions about the game, and with concerns about the way they were trying to "modernize" it, they could have given us a polite brush-off or some vague assurances or otherwise completely lost our interest. Instead, their CEO who is so busy that he hardly ever types more than a few sentences took an hour to talk Descent and design philosophy with me and Drakona, and he talked like someone who loves Descent. (Their lead designer has talked elsewhere about the excitement around the office when they realized we exist -- they get to get feedback on their brand new in-progress video game from people who've mastered its essentials, and who have informed opinions based on decades of experience.)

When I asked about trichording, I was expecting something like "we'll see" or "we don't know if that belongs in a modern game" or even "what's trichodring?" -- but instead WM said definitively "of course there will be trichording" and the look on his face seemed to indicate that he thought it was as obviously a part of Descent as "of course you can look up and down". They NAILED a question where a lot of 6dof projects hang themselves (the Into Cerberon guys called it a bug, reluctantly agreed to make it an option, and then gave me crap when I suggested that would split their community between Descent pilots and people who would be stuck never learning to fly well.)

When I asked about the philosophy behind the TF2/multi-role mode, I ended up in a long conversation with some of their guys about game design. Topics included: the psychology of reward structures (and the evil of skinner boxes like FarmVille); the way partially-completed complex objectives help pilots recognize the progress they're making; the way in-game learning is maximized by putting players near the edge of their comfort zone where they have a mix of full successes, partial successes, narrow failures, and occasional crushing defeats and they can see the path to move themselves up a success category in some way; the role of specialization both in focusing on advantages and in learning to cope with disadvantages; the role of a matchmaking system in exposing pilots to better combat tactics at a comfortable pace; and, finally, the expectation that as pilots became very fluent in combat, some would transition to modes with a heavier combat focus (CTF, anarchy, team anarchy). That's the discussion that convinced me to think of the mode talked about on the KS page as "training mode" and led to Drakona's post to Kali Sketpics.

And it goes on and on. What's the deal with microtransactions? They're a way to allow people who like "bling" to buy cosmetic upgrades -- things like custom clan logos and skins and such -- while paying to keep servers running. Will they be selling add-ons? Yes, the plan is to make significant single player campaigns and other large-scale expansions (think Half-Life episodes or the Starcraft II trilogy) so they can keep paying the bills and building new cool Descent stuff for a decade or more, instead of just releasing and then collapsing between the 1.4 and 1.5 patch *ahem*. Why do the vids show these big spaces with silly decorations? They're works in progress that "show off the pretty", but the real spaces in real levels will be designed with tactical richness in mind. As Drakona pointed out, these guys weren't playing Descent with us 6 months ago, but they've installed it in the office and are playing each other -- and I've even played with a few of them in everything from anarchy to coop, and they all love flying regardless of their current skill levels and controller setups. And they're asking for expert pilots to be involved in the design process and in the testing process and in the balancing process.

Every question I ask, they come back with something that says to me "this is gonna be awesome". It's not a mere Descent remake, or a bad Descent clone; it's Descent with better training and ultimately with more skills. It's not going to be the same thing as SolC, or as D1x-rebirth with Retro mod, but I expect it to be a completely worthy Descent title.

Well, the conversation here about D:U is much more inviting that everything I've seen from the kickstarter (which is quite a turn-off actually). On Monday I have a meeting to start up an extra revenue stream, and if it goes through (likely) I'll make a contribution. I'll do my best to promote D:U, but looking at the total backers I don't have a lot of hope this thing is going to fly.

Yeah, I could contribute a not inconsequential sum, but all I've =seen= doesn't lend itself much to confidence in the project. What I'm hearing is good, but then, we've heard that before...my own company's attempt notwithstanding.

Now if they're interested in perhaps contracting my company as a consultant group for design consistency and QA, I could probably handle all of their QA for free. I'd also poll you lot for testing volunteers. Remember, we played Descent mostly as kids, 20 (D1: 1995) years ago. We've grown up and most of us are professionals in our field, mine being Game Development & Design. What say you, Descendant?

Valin Halcyon wrote:Yeah, I could contribute a not inconsequential sum, but all I've =seen= doesn't lend itself much to confidence in the project. What I'm hearing is good, but then, we've heard that before...my own company's attempt notwithstanding.

Now if they're interested in perhaps contracting my company as a consultant group for design consistency and QA, I could probably handle all of their QA for free. I'd also poll you lot for testing volunteers. Remember, we played Descent mostly as kids, 20 (D1: 1995) years ago. We've grown up and most of us are professionals in our field, mine being Game Development & Design. What say you, Descendant?

All business inquiries would need to be handled through Phil, I'm just the lead moderator.

But until the Kickstarter is successful, I'm pretty sure that they aren't going to be taking about contracting out anything.

If you pledge in the upper three tiers though, you'd have a lot of direct contact with the team once the project is underway.

Show me a design document and a tech demo, and I'll consider backing it.

EDIT: I have the ability to back the project to your KS goal, if you can provide the above...

I know only one way to determine the popularity of games in Russia. If paid game will be hacked and put in open access in RuNet, developers can enjoy a fine cognac and smoke a Cuban cigar. Because this is the first sign that the game was successful.

I would be interested in seeing the design document as well...
Like I've said in the chat though, I honestly can't afford to back right now and I won't be able to until at least two weeks after the Kickstarter is over. It's especially true since I had to take last week off work sick (I had some pretty bad laryngitis and my whole job revolves around talking, lol). I wish I could do more but all I can do is sit around helplessly and watch.

And if you know me at all you know how much I hate sitting around helplessly. Anyone here who knows me could tell you that. If you extended the kickstarter for a few more weeks I'd be 100% likely to give something. I don't want to say how much but it would be considerably more than the $5 minimum.
...
I have to say I'd personally be happy with a singleplayer campaign as simple as Descent 2's, but of course it's not just about me

Hey Valin. Thanks for waiting until Descendent came over here to our forum at the end of their kickstarter to break out the king ★■◆● routine. Thanks but no thanks, pal.

Pledge $250,000 or more

KING $HIT

+All REWARDS from every other tier x3 +1
+Descendent Studios will contact you once a week for marching orders
+A throne in the Descendent Studios main office to use when visiting
+★■◆● Everyone Else level recognition in credits
+Your face on the game box
+Rights to the sequel
+Automatic victory in any match
+The rest of the company scrip...

Please don't mistake skepticism for arrogance. If you're willing to put in what I could (You'd dump 250K if you had it to spare to revive Descent, wouldn't you!? ), you'd still want to be assured your money isn't going to waste. Asking to see the GDD and a Tech Demo is no less than any potential investor in a game would ask for. I'd know, I've invested in several since the days of Descent IV.

Besides, I think you said as much before?

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect some fairly well developed concepts--a few sketches, at least, of ships, weapons, enemies, environments... some story stuff. Add to that an explicit overall goal.

Engine is super important. You were using the UT engine, right?

Myself I don't see a future in a Descent clone (not that I necessarily assume this is what you're wanting to do), beyond some multiplayer fun between old Descent fans. To really have a great gaming experience a game has to be successful beyond the existing Descent community (for this reason a good marketing strategy certainly couldn't hurt you in garnishing support for a kick-starter, I think).

We've been a long time without a satisfactory successor. Usually because Interplay gets its hands tied by Parallax/Outrage/Volition and issues a Cease & Desist order, and when that's not the case, the game is TOO unlike Descent to cut it. These guys have something no one has had since Orbital...the blessing of Interplay (Orbital & Interplay just couldn't get Parallax to agree), and I assume Parallax/Outrage/Volition. That's the primary thing that's drawn my attention. All the rest might as well have not existed to me...and they don't exist anyway, not anymore at least. At the same time, I'm guarded. Star Citizen is all well and good, but it seems built with the in-game purchasing business model. I do not want to see Descent turned into: http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20150320, or this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/ ... nce-itself I don't think any of us do.

Let's see what happens. If they contact me, fine. If they don't, also fine.

Well, TBH I think Valin has a valid point, specially if he has the money to help the project!

...but this is a Kickstarter. I'm backing, plus a few addons. I would never give $250,000 to a kickstarter. With that kind of money we'd be talking investment and return. The key difference here is that you talk about kickstarting on a forum, but you contact directly for investment.

I know, Thorne. But if they can't make the goal before the deadline, *poof*, they get _nothing_. I'm willing to make the gap, if it comes to that, given my terms above. I'd be willing to settle for running their QA for them and being involved (I don't mind being a non-stakeholder (no votes on anything), I'd just want to be heard) in the design process in place of making a return.

This is Descent. It's different for me than just another game.