The Descent Underground Debacle

The return of Descent! Forum for the reboot which will be developed by Descendent Studios.

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The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Hunter »

I figured I'd make a new topic for this, since we need to clear the air a bit and clarify what has been going on with D:U.

These are from the D:U Discord.



Wingman
There is a lot going on behind the scenes. This is 100 % not our doing. Essentially our contract got breached, and now we are tryin to unwind it and get the game to market. It is literally done, just needs a good open beta period to iron out confit issues and gameplay imbalance, but we can’t self publish without getting the rights to do it, and so far LO is not letting us seek another pub or publish ourselves, so we are in talks with nothing agreed to yet. Our team worked for months on little to no pay, and had changes demanded late which kept delaying the game. Our hands are tied, I even had to take a job outside games to survive. We are all committed to the project but we are not able to do things on our own without the authority to do so. Folks that say we scammed are WAY off base, we worked for nothing, this is a publisher holding it hostage trying to get the rights from us, which we have even offered but not for free. I can’t promise lots of updates this is now with the lawyers I wish it weren’t, but we honored the contract.

BTW - I have never lied, that is insulting, and I will run you out for saying it, I have worked more than 4 years with intermittent pay and more than 2 of them with 0. Two years ago our top paid employee made 24k, if this falls completely apart, it will suck, but no one scammed or stole anything. Hopefully, we can negotiate our way through this, but I can’t afford the $1500 per month for servers anymore. And I want to publish what we have.

dunkelza
It's also worth noting that companies who hold the money pulling stunts like this on the developers is unfortunately not uncommon in the industry. While this is the first one I've personally been through, I talk with a LOT of other devs. Almost everyone I've chatted with who has been in game dev for more than a few years has either lived through something like this or knows people who have. That's not to say all publishers are evil- many are good folks. It's just that anywhere there's money to be made, you will get some bad actors- and because of fear of legal reprisals those bad actors almost never get called out by name, so they can do it again and again.

Why won't LO publish a finished game?

Wingman
Christopher, it is our belief that they can’t afford the marketing or console publishing and have parked it. Also we are somewhat at odds as they would like a full arcade game “DOUBLE POINTS” and we desire a more traditional Game
To be clear they would like to chuck our entire campaign and redo it, we want to balance it and hone it in. It is hard, and we need some beta testers to get it in the channel. strike team was on it, and we had good progress then they breached and are trying to steal the IP we own
BTW the move to full arcade was asked in January ... lol

They didn't market the game, they didn't properly test it, they constantly asked for changes - they didn't understand the project or market - they were trying to get it into Walmart instead of focusing on digital - so many ways they breached.....and finally they were unable to pay. We had to hold their hands so often on small things - they commissioned a video - for marketing, it was so unassociated with the game we had to rewrite the storyline, and manage new shots just to make it tie in...took several weeks that should have been dedicated to Dev......I am getting angry just typing this....gonna stop

Honestly this is it for me in games - we will get this out, and I am done with game dev - just tired of all the bull★■◆● from publishers, the lying and lack of integrity from many in the space, and also from the criticism from folks who really don't understand how things work - just so much wrong with the industry I love - I mean people calling devs crooks - when it might simply be a failure of publishers - most devs are broke, I personally have spent my life savings on this project - and will not get that back if it doesn't come out - but of course folks say I took money and ran, even though we actually released in early access 7 months after KStarter and a portion of the game was up for 3+ years - so obviously we were not in the Bahamas drinking Mai - Tais...oh, one more thing, Little Orbit wanting to go full Arcade in January, was typical, they were getting builds for months and then decided to PIVOT based upon the lack of sales for Overload - and that the name Descent did not mean anything in the industry anymore and that they would still need to spend on Marketing. The change in direction was typical of them, and they have a history of pulling stunts late to try to stiff devs

And their lack of payment was not just relegated to us, but also console teams

There was one Sr. Producer who makes BARBIE games that was particularly bad for us, he couldn't make up his mind, and continually gave feedback direction that was counter productive - and then the CEO would come in giving directions without a fundamental understanding of the game. Maddening stuff, but we tried to do a lot of the changes knowing they would take more time assuming they were aware that things like UI changes, and API changes would take months.....and they had the runway to support those decisions - they did not.......only a couple of people there had any real dev experience, IMHO, lots of guys that say they have shipped XYZ, but have never gotten their hands dirty and understand the process.....I don't need someone with a history of Exec producing 50 metacritic games explaining what makes a game good.....and the worst part is we were 2 weeks from getting out the Beta - arguably we could do that now.....

One more thing - Interplay is currently trying to stitch together a deal - we want that to happen. Currently, WE OWN THE IP - 100% of it, we own - Little Orbit claims rights to some of the assets they have paid for to be put into the game, there is an agreement where both parties get to use those assets if the other fails - however, Little Orbit breached that agreement - so we are not sure if that allows us to publish - that is the crux of the matter - We would love to publish in Early Access finish polishing the game and then have Interplay take over as publisher - and we do the live team updates. However we don't want LO to come lawsuiting in - even though they breached the agreement - Hell we even offered to let them publish their own version, we would rename ours "Descent - Hardcore" and they could do their own Arcade version using the same assets - they declined. Essentially they are trying to run us out of biz and take over the IP - that is their strat - we are not letting that happen - we have just as much $$$ and way more time into the project - we have offered to let them buy us out - they don't have the $$$, so consider that..if they can't even buy us out, how are they going to market, publish or finish the game? EXACTLY, they aren't.....so, here we are at an impasse - and those saying they fired us on Steam are way off base, you can't FIRE the IP holder - they just stopped paying, and breached their obligations hoping we would fold and give them everything and then trust them to share....yeah....uh....I don't trust people who sign contracts or extensions they signed 2 months prior....
That is all for now.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Top Gun »

I've heard of far too many occasions where a Kickstarted game partners with a publisher later on down the development road and things go completely to ★■◆●. Descendant may have needed the extra funding at the time, but unfortunately they were also just asking to be fucked over, which it seems like has happened.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

This should of been posted months ago instead of not saying a thing.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by vision »

I kinda feel like this was inevitable. Right from the start everything about this project seemed disjointed, like they were trying to steer a car with a broken wheel; as opposed to Overload where the vision was clear and execution was perfect -- and on time. I think if Mike & Matt had the Descent IP "Overload" would have made a big splash.

Sucks that people's careers have been ruined over this. Best of luck to all and I hope D:U gets released.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Alter-Fox »

To be, well, fair might be the wrong word, but @CDN_Merlin communication was never something Descendent was particularly good at. I agree with what they should have done but expecting it from them is a different thing.

I was on their Strike Team so I can vouch for many of the things Eric is saying here. The game is basically done, and it just needs some beta testing and optimization for release.
When we started testing the singleplayer it was in at best an alpha state, and fairly obvious it hadn't been tested at all by anyone other than Descendent themselves. Fairly obvious even at that point, even to us, that Little Orbit hadn't been doing what they were supposed to. Even if they disagreed with the direction the game was taking, if they had any faith they could convince Descendent to come around to their point of view they should have been testing what was there because that would have helped them later.

@vision if Overload had had the Descent name I still doubt it would have done much better without the sort of marketing Revival was unable to give it. It's been too many years since Descent meant anything outside of our little circle.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Overload had 300G of funding from fans. Descent had 600G. Why were they not able to do it all themselves when Overload was done with little extra money?
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by pipsqueak »

CDN_Merlin wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 5:51 am This should of been posted months ago instead of not saying a thing.
Couldn't agree more Merlin. I don't even think something as detailed as what was posted was necessary but I feel the developers could have just posted something as simple as we haven't run out on the game we are just having problems with the publisher. Instead there was complete silence leaving the fans to speculate on their on their own. IMO, many of the fans felt like here we go again, another Descent game that's not gonna happen. However, I hope the game works out and the developers finally get to make some money on the deal since, clearly, they expended a lot of time and energy on the game.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Alter-Fox »

CDN_Merlin wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:34 pm Overload had 300G of funding from fans. Descent had 600G. Why were they not able to do it all themselves when Overload was done with little extra money?
Overload wasn't trying to make a game approaching AAA graphical quality and... I don't wanna say "gameplay" but, sorta, objectives and variety. Eric stated quite a few times that that quality was Descendent's goal. That does take some serious funding-- arguably significantly more than 600K. I think even after getting it their goal was too ambitious and that's at the root of many of the problems they've been having, and at the root of some of the problems we've been having with them for good measure.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

AAA graphical? Are you kidding me? I find DU is a joke compared to Overload in terms of quality.
Either way, they should of advised the backers of their issue. And also taking down their website, servers etc just makes people angry.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by vision »

CDN_Merlin wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:01 pmAAA graphical? Are you kidding me?
I agree. The AAA graphics thing is a bunch of crap. All the major games just use Unreal or Unity engine, it's not like D:U or anyone else is developing new graphics technology. Personally, I'm more concerned about Art Direction, and that's something Overload nailed.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Hunter »

I've play tested the singleplayer campaign and it's not too bad looking. But yes, the art direction differs from Overload.

D:U also has more engine capabilities than Overload, and of course many more multiplayer modes and features (until OLMod can catch up that is).
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by LightWolf »

They still have a site (via Little Orbit).

https://www.gamersfirst.com/descent/

Love how it's called 'Gamers First' when there are a bunch of gamers mad at them and they don't seem to be listening
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Hunter »

I guess they learned from Interplay (By Gamers For Gamers and all that jazz..)
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Alter-Fox »

CDN_Merlin wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:01 pm AAA graphical? Are you kidding me? I find DU is a joke compared to Overload in terms of quality.
Either way, they should of advised the backers of their issue. And also taking down their website, servers etc just makes people angry.
I never said I thought they were succeeding, lol. I agree about Overload looking better. It was their stated goal in very vague terms which is why I had trouble wording it in my post. I tried a few ways before I hit submit...
They were going all-out on the content side of things though and only seemed to get more ambitious as the money they got from KS started to dwindle. I can understand why they asked for as much as they did (and I still think they were lowballing it), and coming as they did from a project like star citizen it's not hard to see parts of that mindset carrying over if you look for it.

I still believe they had the best of intentions but, looking back on everything that was going on around that time; despite their own internal failings and relative lack of experience I think Sol Contingency had the better team. There were some people who (legitimately I think) believed their contributions weren't being taken seriously but, speaking as someone who had been inside, I think those were the growing pains of a group of people still getting used to working with each other, and could have been worked out with time.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

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Alter-Fox wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 1:05 pm I was on their Strike Team so I can vouch for many of the things Eric is saying here. The game is basically done, and it just needs some beta testing and optimization for release.
When we started testing the singleplayer it was in at best an alpha state, and fairly obvious it hadn't been tested at all by anyone other than Descendent themselves. Fairly obvious even at that point, even to us, that Little Orbit hadn't been doing what they were supposed to. Even if they disagreed with the direction the game was taking, if they had any faith they could convince Descendent to come around to their point of view they should have been testing what was there because that would have helped them later.
I was on the Strike Team as well and concur with Alter-Fox about the state of the game. I've played through the single player campaign and it was complete, but needed optimization. One of the biggest issues in my opinion was the new menu system that, to my understanding, was forced upon Decedent by Little Orbit. It looked flashy but was broken underneath. The ability to save, auto-save and reload saved games was all but useless.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

No images in post Pyro
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

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CDN_Merlin wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm No images in post Pyro
Odd, I can see them.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

I simply see the words IMAGE
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Krom »

I see the pictures, try a control+f5 refresh and make sure you don't have anything blocking tinypic.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Still see 3 dots now. Tried CTRL C5 and no go. Chrome, Firefox and IE. Firefox at home, Chrome and IE at work.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Krom »

If all else fails, try a VPN with a USA exit point.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by defconx »

I see the images fine. It could be an ad blocker will misinterpret some posted images as ads.

I wrote to Little Orbit recently under my real name and asked them to please not get in the way of the vision of a new Descent game, and to please release it for us. A "little while" (several days) later, I got an automated response indicating the e-mail had been converted into some support ticket from Gamers First.

Support tickets do not take that long? Somehow I get the feeling they know exactly how such an automated response would appear; essentially a, "We disregard your emotional pleading. Go cry to tech support."

I hope the source of my feeling is just trauma and paranoia dealing with game companies and not hitting the truth of their unwillingness to finish the game right.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Any update on this? We will get a game we paid for?
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Hunter »

It's still stuck in legal limbo. There are no updates; Wingman did say he'll be the first to announce the outcome.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Found this today.

https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/descen ... --1867574/

More recent but still the same.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Hunter »

Actually an agreement has been reached. Word is the team has gotta get back together and they're aiming for a New Year release.

But nothing has been 'officially' stated yet.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by vision »

That's good news! Do you have a source? I would love to see what they did with the single player campaign. I had high hopes they could redeem themselves.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

If they have made an agreement, why is their site still down?
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Can I get my money back? This is seriously pathetic to have to wait for this without communications.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Top Gun »

CDN_Merlin wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:50 am Can I get my money back? This is seriously pathetic to have to wait for this without communications.
If you backed the Kickstarter, those are non-refundable. They've always advertised thier business model as a back-at-your-own-risk thing.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Damn, cause it seems this is not coming out.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by LightWolf »

From what I've heard they've got the issues all but resolved and have returned to development, hoping for a release early to mid 2020.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Alter-Fox »

Yeah but if they knew for sure they would have announced *something* more publicly. They haven't even reached out to the alpha testers they already had.
They know they're keeping us in suspense about whether the game even exists anymore, and that's the last thing any developer wants to do...
...except maybe Valve. :P
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Piss poor mgmt if you ask me. If dev has restarted, let us know and re-open the web site and game.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Alter-Fox »

I'm just saying I think LightWolf's take on it is overly optimistic.
Even Keen Software gave us more information than this whenever they could. Descendent's management was never great but it's never been this bad before. I think there's probably still some legal hurdle they're not allowed to talk about, or they'd have resumed testing.

But who am I to complain about things I've got a delicious tortiere to eat. With GRAVY! :)
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

hmm meat pie :D
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by Will Robinson »

Any chance this game will get finished?
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by CDN_Merlin »

Doubt it, it's already been over a year it's been offline.
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Re: The Descent Underground Debacle

Post by TigerRaptor »

This kind of reminds me of nTrap from a while ago. Too bad, it looked promising.
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